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NateDredge

“They squabble no less than we lesser mortals. No one's saying to ignore them, but too many people employ them the way lawyers employ psychiatrists: they decide up front what they want to believe, then they search for scholars to buttress their case.”

I’m afraid you’ve hit the nail on the head there, this selective filtering is one of the most common threads of the human condition, and to my mind one of the most annoying. So few people are willing to actually listen to an argument, there just waiting the other person out so they can retort. Rational conversation, sitting down and trying to work things out is tragically rare, and has been for so long that even pointing the fact out seems trite.

I use to be very much this sort of person, but time and experience has lead me to be less dogmatic. I want to hear all sides, I watch Fox News and I read The Nation. The funniest thing is how often groups and people who feel so opposed to one another can actually agree on things. Recently I’ve been reading a book by Pat Robertson and one by Gore Vidal, and was shocked to learn they both largely agreed that big business and finance are playing the American people for fools and are trying to control far to much of their lives. Now if you could put a coalition as diverse as the likes of those two together, you could probably do something about it, but culture war to often wins out.

Anyway I digress (it’s been awhile since I’ve done some blog writing and I’m feeling a little verbose). I though I’d offer kind of the Mormon story on biblical translation. Of course the Church is best known for a translation other then the Bible, the Book of Mormon, but that’s another topic, though interestingly there are only two real English language translations, the original Joseph Smith version (with slight, mostly punctuation changes over time (the original manuscript contained next to no punctuation)) and a modern English version from the Community of Christ’s publishing house.

Latter-day Saints traditionally use the King James Version of the Bible, in large part because our edition of the Book of Mormon uses the King James language. However Joseph Smith reportedly preferred a certain German translation, feeling it to be more accurate. Joseph Smith also produced a Bible translation sometimes referred to as The Inspired Version or JST (Joseph Smith Translation). Essentially that consisted of what he reported to be divinely guided alterations made to correct and enhance a Bible text that had been corrupted over time. Ironically the LDS don’t often use this version (except in foot notes in LDS prints of the King James Bible). I believe this is mainly because use of the ever popular King James Version has a certain public relations value, especially when proselytizing among American protestants. I myself have used several other version in private reading (though not frequently), including both the NIV (America’s second most popular Bible) and the Recovery Version, which seems to have as its goal much the same as the Witnesses outlined for their New World Translation, an emphasis on recapturing the historic meanings of the words in the text.

I’ve not read from a New World Translation myself, but have of course heard the negative charges about the book before. I was unaware that the translation is considered a legitimate one by some scholars outside of the faith, though I suppose that shouldn’t be surprising. Interesting to know.

tomsheepandgoats

Thanks, Nate. Good to hear from you. It didn't take me long blogging to realize that no one has ever ever ever changed his or her mind on the internet.

Jason Chamberlain

As an unashamed Trinitarian, I of course take umbrage with the NWT rendering of John 1:1. While it is possible to translate it "a god," that does not best fit with Greek grammar. Nor is that consistent with the way the word theos is translated in other sections of the NWT.

However, in the end I realize that it comes down to which scholars you trust. I've had 4 semesters of New Testament Greek in seminary and have learned from the textbooks of Bill Mounce and Dan Wallace, which are considered pretty much standards in the conservative evangelical seminary world. However, I also realize that they learned their Greek from someone, etc.

Personally, I trust the traditional understanding of the church on this one. Obviously you don't. Again, the question is which authorities you trust, right?

tomsheepandgoats

It's a fair comment, Jason. Thank you for it.

Maybe the effect of all these scholars is that the verse is nuetralized, and that one must look elsewhere is scripture to support/rebuff the trinity belief.

Jason Chamberlain

I would also point to John 8:58-59 for Jesus' claim to divinity for two reasons. One is that translating "ego eimi" to "I have been" seems bizarre for the present active indicative. I know that it is done in John 14:9, but that is to smooth out the English (incidentally, I checked in French and it doesn't suffer from this problem with translating the present active indicative). The other is that I don't understand why else the Jews would want to stone him unless they thought he had just committed the heresy of claiming to be God. They were upset about the Greek, not our attempts to render this faithfully into English.

Another would be John 20:28 with Thomas' reaction to the holes in Jesus' body. I find it hard to buy the argument that a faithful Jew like Thomas would blaspheme out of surprise.

All translation has some degree of theological bias since there are going to be ambiguities in places where you go from Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic to English. You think that Arius was right and the councils were wrong, but the historic church and I take the other approach. Again, it comes down to who you trust. I see Jesus as divine based on my understanding of the Greek of these and other passages. Would citing them and my reasons matter?

tomsheepandgoats

Asserting one was God's son would make one of the same "stuff" as God, and seems sufficient to me to ignite a charge of blasphemy.

Thomas says "my Lord and my God." It is purely the readers' assumption that he is equating the two.

Re John 8:58-59, it would be good to see how other translations have put it. I don't have that information at my fingertips. Since the beginning of the 20th century, there has been about one new English translation per year.

"Would citing them and my reasons matter?" Probably not, Jason. Not to say I don't appreciate your comments. I do. But I have found a discussion on the Trinity can become endless, never producing agreement. Having both stated our positions, my motto is "let God sort it out."

Jason Chamberlain

Personally, I'm not too interested in how other translations put John 8:58-59 unless my Greek education is inadequate. That's one of the joys of learning the original languages, but you still end up with that question of authority again. You trust your folks and I trust mine.

Regarding the matter of the Trinity, I believe it is of utmost importance that we get Jesus right. However, in addition to being a Trinitarian I am also a Calvinist which means that I don't think anyone is ever rationally persuaded into the kingdom of heaven.

Soren Hovsepian

I do not know Greek or the Greek grammar. Have a tough time with English. But I know for sure the Gospels were written for the common man, since most of mankind on this beautiful earth are common and understand basic language. Imagine if God had abandoned us to the learned of Greek and Hebrew, why, we would be without hope to say the least, all 6 Billion of us poor things. But, I know better than that, that, NO, God did not abandon us like that. I let God's infallable and consistant Word lead me. I let simpler to understand thoughts and statements that do not need a masters degree or a PHD to understand lead me and help me decide how to understand other more difficult verses, for they have to be in agreement and not contradict each other. For instance after Jesus was resurrected he told Mary in John 20:17, that her God and his God were the same. Also many years after Jesus' ascension to heaven while Jesus was sitting on the right hand of GOD, the apostle Paul identifies the position of Jesus in relationship to his Father in Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be THE God .....of our Lord Jesus Christ". Now what Greek grammar could muddy that? Either God is Jesus's God as it is expressed here or not?
Allow me just one more... from Jesus' own mouth while sitting on God's right hand around the year 98-100 AD (long after his resurrection folks) is found in Rev. 3:12
where Jesus calls God "my God" three times. For an uneducated common man like me - and I hope my Lord Jesus is not attempting to confuse me here, because I love him - means only one thing and one thing only...yes you guessed it, that God is His God. If God is THE GOD of Jesus, the trinity has no chance. Therefore I have concluded that the trinity is just another artfully contrived teaching. My advice? Let simpler scriptures be your guide to explain other "conroversial" ones. Except, there are no controversial ones to us common people.

tomsheepandgoats

"Let simpler scriptures be your guide to explain other "conroversial" ones."

Sounds like a good approach.

Soren Hovsepian

SORRY FOR ANY MISSPELLED WORDS AND THE POOR ENGLISH GRAMMER. SOREN

tom sheepandgoats

Alas, Soren, you've regressed! At least insofar as grammar/grammer is concerned.

Oh, well. I always use spell check.......and one faithful brother from Virginia or somewhere who alerts me when I have nonetheless botched something.

Soren Hovsepian

WELL TOM, I COULD NOT FIND SPELL CHECK ON THIS WEBSITE
HOWEVER AFTERWARDS, I THOUGHT ABOUT IT A LITTLE AND I FOUND A WAY
WHICH I HOPE IT WILL WORK, IS TO COPY AND PASTE THE TEXT INTO A WORD PROGRAM ETC AND CHECK IT OUT.(IT DID WORK !)
SORRY, ENGLISH IS NOT MY LANGUAGE, I HAD TO LEARN IT ALONG WITH ARABIC AND NORWEGIAN, ON TOP OF MY NATIVE LANGUAGE OF ARMENIAN. MY APOLOGIES.

tom sheepandgoats

Off the top of my head, I can't think of 4 more diverse languages than English, Norwegian, Armenian, and Arabic. You have my respect to tackle them all, all the more so because English really doesn't spell in any logically consistent way - any spelling "rules" are very loose and have no end of exceptions.

Jason Chamberlain

Soren,

The Gospels were indeed written for the common man who spoke the language that they were written in. However, given that we are 2000 years removed from those languages someone needs to have some education in them if we are to understand what they mean.

Frankly, to me, you cannot get any simpler than His declaration in John 8:58 and the nagging question of why the Pharisees would want to stone Him unless He committed blasphemy. My Greek education further cements this for me.

As I wrote above, it all comes down to who you trust as your authority. It's nice to say that we trust "the Bible alone," but that's not entirely true. We trust those who have translated the Bible into a language that we can understand.

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